Alena Muravska - 18-05-2021 16:00:02
Hi everyone, I’m Alena Muravska from the RIPE NCC. This chat panel is meant for discussion ONLY. If you have questions for the speaker and you want the session chair to read it out, please write it in the Q&A window also stating your affiliation. Otherwise, you can ask questions using the microphone icon.
Please note that all chat transcripts will be archived and made available to the public on https://ripe82.ripe.net/.
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:00:39
check-in link is on the registration page
Jim Reid - 18-05-2021 16:00:43
@ Robert whatever happened to those terminals? VT100s were cool!
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 16:01:44
The Programme Committee Elections site is live at https://ripe82.ripe.net/programme/ripe-pc/candidate-biographies/ linked from the front page as well. Please do vote! Thank you!
Jan Žorž - 18-05-2021 16:02:18
clap clap clap
Jan Žorž - 18-05-2021 16:02:23
Niall O'Reilly - 18-05-2021 16:02:27
Sandra Murphy - 18-05-2021 16:02:32
Mirjam Kühne - 18-05-2021 16:02:33
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:02:37
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 16:02:40
Matt Parker - 18-05-2021 16:02:56
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:03:29
Robert Kisteleki - 18-05-2021 16:03:40
Rumy Kanis - 18-05-2021 16:04:00
Nigel Hickson - 18-05-2021 16:06:05
Good afternoon. Look forward to session.
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:14:59
It seems that the DSA is mainly a content regulation act. As always, lawmakers think by taking-down content they fix all the societal problems
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:16:20
Maybe we should conduct a poll: Do you believe this will help the Internet rather hinder new developments and increase burocracy for involved parties?
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 16:16:55
I mean, in theory that poll is a European parliament election, but obviously that's just a lovely theory.
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:17:12
Kurt: can you propose that on the co-op mailing list?
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:17:36
The Euro Parliament should have done this poll before they actually came up with these ideas. Impact assessment of their laws is important...
Sabine Meyer - 18-05-2021 16:17:50
what would the WG do with the result of such a poll?
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:18:16
just take it as feedback back to the EU
Florian Streibelt - 18-05-2021 16:18:33
they will probably force provciders to "block" that company
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:19:00
Is there a fine?
Peter Koch - 18-05-2021 16:19:33
@Farzaneh: indeed, but "taking down content" wouldn't be too wrong; important here is the role of the intermediaries, and even non-intermediaries
Sander Steffann - 18-05-2021 16:21:19
Based on this presentation it doesn't look too bad, but a lot of potential problems can be in the details
Alexander Isavnin - 18-05-2021 16:21:28
@Peter “good government” taking down content could become not so good. We in Russia, and You in Germany and even Farzaneh in US have such examples in our history
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:21:30
yes exactly, Peter. Just to add, taking down content is not the only solution. but it seems like all the law-makers can only imagine take-downs... for all the services ... without considering the impact.
Sander Steffann - 18-05-2021 16:21:37
If this is executed correctly then I think it can help, but that's a big IF
Peter Koch - 18-05-2021 16:21:37
@Kurt: careful what you wish for, depending on the "we" in "we"
Desiree Miloshevic Evans - 18-05-2021 16:21:44
more info on DSA : Q&A https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_20_2348
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:22:16
+1 Alexander. Even in democratic countries take-downs cannot be done so well.
Alena Muravska - 18-05-2021 16:22:42
Please be reminded, that his chat panel is meant for discussion ONLY. If you have questions for the speaker and you want the session chair to read it out, please write it in the Q&A window also stating your affiliation. Otherwise, you can ask questions using the microphone icon.
Nigel Hickson - 18-05-2021 16:22:59
Thank you Agne
Sander Steffann - 18-05-2021 16:23:01
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:24:30
How is this harmonized then? one set of rules I thought...
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:24:31
so this sounds like this is structured to go after the big fish & leave the small fish alone
Peter Koch - 18-05-2021 16:24:37
Indeed, one cannot "unthink" ideas; still, this is the Internet identifier system community and what's concerning is "dealing" with content from a (technical) distance; also terms like "harmful" open the flood gates even for not so not so good govts
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:24:59
it'll be interesting to see how the details of the directive ensure the preservation of that intent at the member state level
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:25:51
we have 100 versions of legal definition of terrorist and harmful even inside the EU. oh well, I give up and listen to the next pres.
Peter Koch - 18-05-2021 16:26:05
@Blake: DSA is a proposed regulation, not directive
Suzanne Taylor - 18-05-2021 16:26:16
@Peter, I agree about the term "harmful" but the focus is more on "illegal" now. Which can still be tricky, of course.
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:26:17
thanks for the clarification Peter
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:27:05
for general background: https://europa.eu/european-union/law/legal-acts_en
Daniel Karrenberg - 18-05-2021 16:27:21
CENTR 20 years. Wow. I still remember how RIPE and RIPE NCC helped CENTR to get started!
Desiree Miloshevic Evans - 18-05-2021 16:27:42
indeed a lot of history between CENTR and RIPE
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:27:54
they grow up so fast
Leo Vegoda - 18-05-2021 16:28:08
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:28:18
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:28:29
(and boy, aren't we getting old)
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:28:38
@Daniel: yes, time is a precious good..
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:29:22
having routers in your network older than some of your coworkers feels really weird
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:29:26
Noo, we are not getting old....
Alexander Isavnin - 18-05-2021 16:29:52
@peter to deal with “harmful” content, it need to be identified. Guess, do “internet identifiers community” have ralation to this case?
Peter Koch - 18-05-2021 16:30:03
@Julf 'had been getting ...' ?
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:30:36
@Peter I keep a portrait in my attic...
Peter Koch - 18-05-2021 16:30:55
@Julf some call it a mirror
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:30:56
Internet is not capitialized there...
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:31:14
a portrait of your old router?
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:31:36
@Blake: minor network relevance..
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:32:06
@Farzaneh yes, that is why my router stays young... :)
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:32:29
@Blake, the importance of that capital "I" is never tangible for editors and ... lawmakers I guess
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:32:31
it gives some insight into the familiarity & intent of the author...
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:35:36
great summary, thanks
Mick Begley - 18-05-2021 16:36:15
Leo Vegoda - 18-05-2021 16:36:15
Nigel Hickson - 18-05-2021 16:36:36
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:36:38
What a great summary. Always acing it Polina.
Peter Koch - 18-05-2021 16:37:13
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:37:27
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:37:43
They might even fit in some upload filters in DSA. that should be fun.
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:38:14
Oh please... not via a EU mandate/directive..
Andrew Campling - 18-05-2021 16:39:13
An EU-wide mandate to block CSAM would be helpful, there are too many inconsistencies at present between Member States,
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 16:39:41
Be careful what you wish for, Andrew. Block where and how and coordinated by whom?
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:39:47
+1 Andrew, traceability is also all over the place
Chris Buckridge - 18-05-2021 16:40:39
thank you Agne and Polina for those presentations!
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:40:55
Andrew Campling - 18-05-2021 16:40:56
@Brian For CSAM I'm pretty relaxed how, the IWF amongst others can help identify target material and sites
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 16:41:25
Yeah, but the problem with those lists is that there is scope creep and sites that shouldn't be on them get onto them, that's my main concern.
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:41:45
Andrew Campling - 18-05-2021 16:42:22
@Brian Fair point, although solvable with processes to deal with false positives
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:42:34
Rob your audio is cutting in & out
Andrea Togni - 18-05-2021 16:42:52
Oh, I thought it was me
Mirjam Kühne - 18-05-2021 16:42:52
Maybe switch off video?
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 16:42:55
My point is that yes, CSAM is an awful thing, and people should act against it in a variety of ways, but I'm not convinced that doing it at an EU level is the way to do it.
Peter Magnusson - 18-05-2021 16:43:06
yes switch off video
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 16:43:47
And it depends how you're defining "false positive." I tend to find that once you have a group who has that scope, and a list, the scope and the list will only get bigger. But this is part of the ongoing conversation.
Andrea Togni - 18-05-2021 16:44:03
Uhm, maybe it's a sensitivity issue?
Tim Chown - 18-05-2021 16:44:06
Peter Magnusson - 18-05-2021 16:44:06
switching off video didnt help :X
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:44:12
sounds like either loose mic cable or overloaded CPU
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:44:15
Andrew; DK has quite a track on how CASM measures expanded into other areas - RIPE archives haa several presentations about censurfri dns that showed the gliding slope of that initiative (and not even legislation, voluntary framework)
Carsten Schiefner - 18-05-2021 16:44:37
A bit of latecoming: thanks Agne and Polina - truly informative.
Andrew Campling - 18-05-2021 16:44:55
@Brian the issue is that current policies lead to mutually exclusive requirements in different member states. And a significant rise in material hosted in some, even as other states flush it out.
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:45:22
I'm gonna go with overloaded CPU, maybe Rob can quit some other apps or close some tabs?
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:45:26
oh identity of traffic. Not persons. hmm sounds like an excellent opportunity for tax lovers to tax traffic..
Agne Kaarlep - 18-05-2021 16:46:46
Many thanks to all for tuning into the presentation and for the excellent questions and discussions in this chat! Reading through your lively discussions I wanted to highlight that the DSA also goes beyond takedown approach but only for very large online platforms where it obliges these to assess the risks their systems pose to the spread of illegal content, risks to fundamental rights and intentional manipulation of their service. More information can be found here https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-services-act-ensuring-safe-and-accountable-online-environment_en
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:47:08
this is what MS Teams sounds like on a cheap Chromebook :-)
Sabine Meyer - 18-05-2021 16:47:31
thank you for following up, Agne
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:48:10
It sounds like just 5% loss :-)
Peter Magnusson - 18-05-2021 16:49:07
if he uses wifi a disconnect and reconnect to it might help
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:49:40
could also be bluetooth audio problems
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:51:20
or maybe his laptop is just mining cryptocurrency...
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:51:30
Desiree Miloshevic Evans - 18-05-2021 16:51:36
@Peter - i can ask but we risk losing him completely
Peter Magnusson - 18-05-2021 16:51:44
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:52:29
& turn off the other speakers' video feeds
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:53:15
sorry for the transciption-folx..
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:57:44
I have difficulties understanding how content regulation really is within the purview of the digital single market.
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 16:58:09
"A good audio/video setup is the new 'wear a coat & tie to a meeting'" --Greg Ferro
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:58:35
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:58:50
you save money on pants, don't you :p
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 16:58:53
Oliver Payne - 18-05-2021 16:58:57
I don't think I've ever seen a tie at a RIPE meeting :)
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:59:13
Was going to say I never wore a tie... :)
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 16:59:14
I am repeatedly and genuinely shocked how many people use their laptop's speaker & mic still.
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:59:20
You missed Job's presentation
João Luis Silva Damas - 18-05-2021 16:59:26
he is also receiving 3 video streams which amounts to a lot more BW than he is using and wifi is not full-duplex so if the problem is his wifi, we can also help from this side
Andrew Campling - 18-05-2021 16:59:41
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 16:59:43
not sure if I ever wore one, but for sure usually have one with me just in case
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 16:59:45
I have to point out the broadcast-quality mic at the upper right of my picture :)
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 16:59:49
the problem is that the tailor of good audio video set up has to do ongoing tailoring...
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 17:00:20
40€ Jabra USB headset works fantastically well for me
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 17:00:22
@brian I always use the build-in and never caused any issues
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 17:00:58
no bluetooth, no batteries, always just works...
Marco Hogewoning - 18-05-2021 17:01:00
in fact, the blue tooth usually is more buggy or you run out of power
Brian Nisbet - 18-05-2021 17:01:28
I'm glad, Marco. :) But I've still seen a lot of feedback and other things. And I'm not promoting bluetooth either. I like a lot of wireless stuff, but I plug my headset into my computer. Old school. :)
Wolfgang Tremmel - 18-05-2021 17:01:50
microphone always wired... using a Røde USB
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 17:02:01
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 17:02:25
Blue makes fantastic inexpensive microphones
Desiree Miloshevic Evans - 18-05-2021 17:02:52
we overrun our time..
Blake Willis - 18-05-2021 17:02:53
gotta drop, great session folks, thanks
Andrew Campling - 18-05-2021 17:02:54
A hardwired external mic (Blue Yeti) and speakers usually make a big difference and don't cost a great deal either
Kurt Kayser - 18-05-2021 17:03:56
Sounds like an old IPv4-connection.. It would be much better with IPv6
Chris Buckridge - 18-05-2021 17:04:06
Carsten Schiefner - 18-05-2021 17:04:07
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 17:04:11
Polina Malaja - 18-05-2021 17:04:14
Thank you so much all, it was a pleasure to be here!!
Nigel Hickson - 18-05-2021 17:04:20
Farzaneh Badiei - 18-05-2021 17:04:25
thank you Polina!
Maria Häll - 18-05-2021 17:04:33
Thx a lot! Very interesting session!
Sabine Meyer - 18-05-2021 17:04:57
Julf Helsingius - 18-05-2021 17:05:01
Thank you everybody!
harish pillay - 18-05-2021 17:05:06
thank you all!
Achilleas Kemos - 18-05-2021 17:05:18
I cannot unmute
Carsten Schiefner - 18-05-2021 17:05:20
And thanks to all presenters! And the chairs, too, of course!
Alena Muravska - 18-05-2021 17:05:26
This session has now ended. The next session is Code of Conduct BoF and it will start at 17:30. More info on the RIPE 82 meeting plan: https://ripe82.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/